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abcde666777 6 hours ago [-]
Being able to see ourselves as something beyond our job (our means of survival) is a luxury. If a person can't provide for themselves the rest goes out the window fast.
The only way to ease the anxiety in people isn't with fluff about their 'human worth', but rather to help them envision other tangible and plausible ways in which they can provide for themselves.
The cold reality, in my opinion, is that the things we value about ourselves are generally not that valuable to others. I love my own personality and humanity, my soul if you will, but nobody's paying me for it, and so I have to value it accordingly.
Hell, let me go even darker: there are billions of souls on this planet. They're not a rare thing like say, gold. They're very easily produced, by two people getting it on. That leads to a harsh conclusion: human beings aren't that valuable as individuals. We are in fact very disposable and replaceable.
Those living in the first world have been shielded from that harsh reality for some time, but it's starting to show up on our doorstep and we don't like it, and due to our inexperience with it we haven't learned how to adapt to it.
It scares me too, but I refuse to be in denial about it.
hunter67 2 minutes ago [-]
> I love my own personality and humanity, my soul if you will, but nobody's paying me for it, and so I have to value it accordingly.
Don't let capitalism do this to you. Not everything with value is paid in this system, only things which make the buyer more money.
helloplanets 3 hours ago [-]
> We are in fact very disposable and replaceable.
To your friends and family as well? Or just your employer?
You're describing things that may well be true for a lot of employers, but fall apart outside of that context.
throwawaygod 2 hours ago [-]
That may be true for a lot of families and friends as well. They may not dispose you outright but they will try to cut you off every chance they get.
atmosx 44 minutes ago [-]
But it may not be true for family or of employers… so we are back to square one I suppose.
krystalgamer 7 minutes ago [-]
it's a very modern idea, too. historically people names were associated with their profession.
for the op, it might not define you but it does define you for others.
MathMonkeyMan 5 hours ago [-]
> The cold reality, in my opinion, is that the things we value about ourselves are generally not that valuable to others. I love my own personality and humanity, my soul if you will, but nobody's paying me for it, and so I have to value it accordingly.
Maybe this was Diogenes's observation.
atmosx 45 minutes ago [-]
True. But tbh, you can find ppl making time for themselves or not, in most salary ranges. Extreme poverty is another issue ofc. That’s why we have social welfare, to avoid extreme poverty.
An old classic. Thanks for reminding me about this article.
throwaway-11-1 6 hours ago [-]
They aren’t valuable to markets, but like I have neighbors who are treasured by the community and genuinely bring joy to everyone. But no, I guess they aren’t economically important. I actually don’t like how every soul has been reduced to an efficiency metric, surprised how much I find forums like this accept that framing.
abcde666777 5 hours ago [-]
True as well. I've had similar communal experiences where you get a taste of the old way, the way humans would have operated when we lived in tribes. And on that level I think we are capable of valuing each other as beings - the instinct to look out for each other kicks in.
But this modern society we live in... it's just not structured that way anymore. Most of us live in little silos now: our job and our atomic family.
And we've become so used to depending on it that it looks very unlikely to change until/unless shit hits the fan. Your average person doesn't know how to grow their own food or build their own shelter, and even if they do it's far less convenient than just getting a paycheck and relying on the supermarket.
It's often amazing to me that the whole edifice of it functions as long as it does. Sometimes when I'm in the CBD here in Melbourne, I sit there marveling at the thousands of people I see wandering the streets, all of whom are somehow employed by someone to do something such that they have enough money to keep afloat.
encrypted_bird 5 hours ago [-]
> Your average person doesn't know how to grow their own food
And, you know the sad part? A lot of places don't allow you to even try to learn. For example, my current place that I rent has a yard (it's a nice little trailer home), but I'm not allowed to have a garden. They even chopped down the nice tree that was growing in the yard when I first moved in.
Oh, I can certainly try to grow stuff inside in containers, but that means I gotta get containers (which I can't afford) and I get an increased risk of bugs & dirt being in the house (not a fan thanks).
BobbyJo 4 hours ago [-]
To be fair, growing your own food is incredibly inefficient. Agriculture is one of the places where economies of scale shine very very brightly.
praddlebus 3 hours ago [-]
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lynx97 3 hours ago [-]
You can't afford a $10 plastic container for growing plants? If that is true (which I doubt), I would be willing to drop you a few bucks via PayPal.
lynx97 3 hours ago [-]
Ha! I grew up in a rural area, "communal" if you may. And leaving that hellhole of dishonesty and depression was one of the most important moves in my life. I guess it really depends on how you deal with communal life and how much you are able to ignore people who think they have the right to comment your lifestyle/situation. Well, maybe I am too harsh, and this phenomenon isn't obvious to non-disabled people. But the amount of patronisation I usually get in communal situations makes me LOVE my urban life.
praddlebus 3 hours ago [-]
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charcircuit 3 hours ago [-]
Doesn't that work its way into property values. People want to live in a good neighborhood and community and are willing to pay more for it.
beeflet 4 hours ago [-]
You and your neighbors might mutually provide joy for each other, but there is a third party in this exchange: the massive industrial complex that provides the food and shelter you need to live. Unfortunately the industrial complex does not accept joy as a form of payment, so this whole system isn't going to work out.
BobbyJo 5 hours ago [-]
> But no, I guess they aren’t economically important. I actually don’t like how every soul has been reduced to an efficiency metric, surprised how much I find forums like this accept that framing.
Efficiency is the metric of nature. Thinking about human life in any other terms than input and output is objectively a luxury, afforded only to societies with surplus resources. Calling it "framing" feels a little disingenuous.
MegagramEnjoyer 4 hours ago [-]
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johnisgood 40 minutes ago [-]
Funny how YouTubers get paid for... generally themselves alone. I mean come on, many are getting paid for reacting to other people's videos.
yakshaving_jgt 2 hours ago [-]
> We are in fact very disposable and replaceable.
Gerasimov? Is it you?
mathieuh 4 hours ago [-]
Isn't this exactly Marx's criticism of capitalism through the theory of alienation? Human relationships get mediated and hidden as relationships between commodities and money.
abcde666777 3 hours ago [-]
Probably a valid criticism. Of course coming up with a better alternative is always where the devil's at.
codemog 3 hours ago [-]
Hey you’re welcome to your view. In my view that’s an insanely disgusting devaluation of human life that’s been put into peoples brains by propaganda. Capitalism and materialism sure is great huh.
ainiriand 1 hours ago [-]
Since the beginning of human history, people have always defined themselves by what they contribute to the group; a hunter, a farmer, a king... Today is no different. We may not be our job, but that is how others see us at first. They are not trying to get to know you; they just want to know where you fit, so they know how to deal with you. Only later, if things get personal, might they become interested in you as a person.
pjerem 19 seconds ago [-]
> but that is how others see us at first
Well I think it's nothing more than a social norm, and an easy one to avoid at that. People are mostly asking what's your job because that's a standard icebreaker.
Since I (mostly) recovered from burnout, and learnt that I'm actually not my job, I took the habit to never automatically ask people what is their job, at least not for ice breaking.
You can talk about their hobbies, their kids, their tastes ... because those are the real topics that will define if you bond or not anyway. And yes some people sometimes do have an interesting job that is worth talking about but when it happens, you will inevitably talk about it anyway.
firecall 1 hours ago [-]
> Since the beginning of human history
You have that backwards though! :-)
We'd get to know people in our community, often because they were born in to it, then we'd fit in to productive roles.
The way we do it these days is a recent, post industrial revolution, mode of society.
i_am_a_peasant 1 hours ago [-]
Nah I think this paradigm already exists when city states form and you no longer live in a village where everyone knows everyone
atmosx 47 minutes ago [-]
Where I live, when meeting ppl they don’t introduce by asking “so what do you do?”, instead the phrasing is somewhat akin to “what do you spent your time on”. Even though they mean “what is your profession”, it allows me to stir the discussion to “what I like” or what kind of subject I enjoy discussing at that time eg philosophy, theatre, books, etc.
baq 37 minutes ago [-]
I agree to an extent that you mostly worked with people you grown up with on those farms, some of which became lifelong friends. This has been replaced by making friends in high school and then parting ways forever, more or less.
I’ll add that if you see your colleagues as anything else than primarily working for money, you’re a bit delusional unless you know for a fact they could not work for the rest of their lives and be financially fine. Of course there are other reasons to work than money, but the way the system is set up you’re not supposed to care more about them than about cold hard cash.
Tor3 32 minutes ago [-]
The focus on "what you do" is very US-centric (or possibly North American). When you meet someone then one of the very first things asked is "what do you do" or something to that extent. What your job is.
But it's not like that at all elsewhere in the world. It varies a lot. I myself never ask that question, unless it's for a very specific reason. And _never_ as part of an introduction.
I've known people for decades without knowing what their job is, or I only have a vague idea about their job. It's not important for people here. The person itself is important. There are other things than the job which define the person. I know this sounds very strange for Americans, but, in fact, the strangeness is the other way around.
I'm not sure that I can say "I am not my job" [mostly because I actually very much enjoy what I do there], but I can definitely say "you are not your job". Because I don't even know your job, nor do I much care.
musicale 8 hours ago [-]
> You are not your job. You're a person first. Your ability to connect, be present, and make people feel understood is what makes you irreplaceable to the people around you, which is the only market that counts.
True, but losing your job is still a big deal. It often means that you lose your income, your health insurance (in the US at least), many (if not most) of your daily interactions with other people, and your social status.
> My technical skills are being disrupted by machines - that's fine I'll go do other things.
As others have noted, it's great to not actually need the paycheck you are working for.
Animats 59 minutes ago [-]
> > My technical skills are being disrupted by machines - that's fine I'll go do other things.
> As others have noted, it's great to not actually need the paycheck you are working for.
Um. Yes. There's a link on "other things". It's to a site for a bike tour. The author seems to be implying they don't really need a job.
I still remember hearing a group of homeless people near the cable car turntable at Powell and Market in SF talking about the days when they used to be printers. That was, for several hundred years, a stable, well-paying job.
tdeck 7 hours ago [-]
> Your ability to connect, be present, and make people feel understood is what makes you irreplaceable
They say this to a group of people that often struggles with all of these but still have managed to make a living off of solving technical problems in the past. Don't worry, you can just fall back on your famously great people skills!
TOMDM 6 hours ago [-]
The irony in your comment is astounding.
tdeck 6 hours ago [-]
Thanks for your comment. I will try to follow your example in the future.
zinodaur 8 hours ago [-]
> In the US, it means that you lose your income, your health insurance
Luckily, in the US, you can get another one much more quickly than anywhere else in the world, and be payed several multiples of what anyone else is payed.
musicale 7 hours ago [-]
> in the US, you can get another one much more quickly than anywhere else in the world
Depending on the economic conditions for the year, it can still take months:
> To illustrate the recent trajectory: one analysis found that in January 2023 it took job seekers 268 days on average to land a job offer, whereas by August 2024 this had improved to 182 days (about 6 months) (How Long Does it Take to Find a Job in 2024?). Another dataset focusing on tech jobseekers showed a similar trend – those in 2024 took about 247 days on average to secure a “good” job, down from 281 days in 2023.
The whole world is hurting pretty bad right now when it comes to tech jobs - America seems to be hurting the least.
I'm not saying the tech job situation in America isn't bad - but the world dances to America's fiddle, and its frustrating hearing Americans complain about how hard their situation is while their boot is firmly planted on my neck
musicale 7 hours ago [-]
I have edited it to clarify that (in the US) applied to losing health insurance.
jleyank 7 hours ago [-]
To be specific, it’s tied to good employment. Part-time and low-salary jobs don’t often (usually?) provide it. So trading a good tech jobs for “things to keep busy” loses the insurance. Unless you can afford cobra and that only lasts 18 months. At what tends to be 5x the price.
bayarearefugee 7 hours ago [-]
I completely understand where you are coming from, but try not to hate on American laborers because of this situation, that is no more helpful than Americans blaming immigrants for their job woes.
It is the wealthy capitalist class that has the boot planted on all of our necks.
I do recognize that the outcome is worse for some people than others, but keeping us fighting each other is how they continue to maintain power.
tombert 6 hours ago [-]
Kind of odd to try and inject some "raw raw go America" shit into something where it really wasn't necessary.
Even if you're right (and I find that a bit questionable), it doesn't really feel like it was prompted to go on this "Fuck yeah America!!!" speech.
collingreen 4 hours ago [-]
Parent is resentful of America and their perception of Americans taking for granted how much easier it is to get an American tech job.
There is no rah rah here; literally says in next comment how Americans have their (American's) boots on their (parent's) neck.
cedws 15 hours ago [-]
>My technical skills are being disrupted by machines - that's fine I'll go do other things. [links to long bike trip]
Ok that's cool and all but many of us have bills to pay. Bike trips don't pay the bills. Software people have been economically advantaged up until now that they can go and do stuff like that.
rc-1140 15 hours ago [-]
Even software people have bills to pay and mouths to feed. I think people like the article author are either single or have no dependents, and it's a big reason I cannot take many of these posts seriously. Much like the story of Peter Pan, the authors of these posts are college students who never grew up and had to be responsible.
block_dagger 15 hours ago [-]
Within a few years I think UBI or UBS will be required for people to continue living, in which case basic needs (bills) won't be a concern. There's just no way for us to transition fast enough to avoid high unemployment as AI replaces large swaths of jobs. I do worry about the ~10 year transition it will take for societal governments to react.
cedws 15 hours ago [-]
I think UBI is a pipe dream. I live in the UK and even with our social safety net which is much stronger than the US's, I can't imagine the government ever handing out money adequate to live a middle class life to large chunk of the population.
UBI has problems that far as I know haven't been addressed. Vast numbers of people no longer being occupied doesn't seem like it would lead to a healthy society. And how do you uphold democracy when the government is effectively handing out the paychecks?
eucyclos 3 hours ago [-]
Whoever said anything about middle class? Ubi is the poverty level, it could never be anything else.
As for people not being occupied, the theory is that since ubi doesn't stop if you find employment, it would lead to less idleness than the current means-tested social safety nets. In test cases though it seems to depend a lot on culture, Finnish communities saw no difference in employment while Indian rates of business formation tripled.
andai 15 hours ago [-]
Recently: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists
>Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.
Can't uphold what isn't there, lol
As for how do we avoid becoming WALL-E blobs... elite opinion seems to suggest the UBI will be just enough to prevent people from going into the streets with pitchforks, but not enough for a dignified life. (Enough to live in ze pod and eat ze proverbial bugs.)
I don't see employment being a very big thing (unless AI creates some kinda fake jobs economy to pacify the humans, which would be a rational thing to do).
The crisis of meaning is going to be worse than the economic crisis, and I think people would literally pay to work rather than question their existence on such a deep level.
Beyond fake jobs and human-only jobs (robot can't replace the cute barista at Starbucks!), I think entrepreneurship will be the only real vehicle. So... basically how it already is today.
carlosjobim 7 hours ago [-]
> Not quite UK, and not very big, but somewhat promising :)
Rulers have given stipends to artists and scholars for hundreds of years. There's hardly anything new about it.
Make the art or science that satisfies the duke or the glorious district chairman and you will be on the receiving end of these benefits.
rmoriz 8 hours ago [-]
UBI/UBS requires a very solidaric community. But the current situation (in Germany) is not about finding any job but taking a low paid, hard working or even dangerous job (nursing service, shifter, even soldier, public sector).
UBI makes it even harder to find people for that kind of jobs. Not paying any social benefits and increasing the pressure on the unemployed to take these jobs is much more interesting for everyone that is not unemployed. Please don't judge me for writing this. It's the feeling I have, not my view.
kuerbel 3 hours ago [-]
A lot, I'd say even most people in Germanys long term unemployment scheme which are not already working part time (Aufstocker) have severe mental and physical health problems. More pressure isn't going to help those people but it's the current Government's shtick.
I'd say UBI would make it easier to find people working in demanding jobs because you could to them part time, so they don't wear you down as much. It's much easier to work as a nurse for 20 hours a week.
cermicelli 8 hours ago [-]
Only way UBI works is if the govts increase taxes on all income or any income to almost 90%+...
And then re-distribute to each person accordingly. That ain't happening, no govt will be willing to try that, and rich won't let that happen, they will become slightly rich from very rich. that just ain't happening.
6 hours ago [-]
carlosjobim 7 hours ago [-]
Have you heard about the last century? A few governments did that. You had to stand in line for food and your basic goods.
slopinthebag 2 hours ago [-]
UBI just inflates the currency. What will hopefully end up happening is that displaced workers can do jobs which aren't economically viable atm, but are still socially viable: Imagine an army of workers cleaning up the streets (literally) and transforming your town into a clean, well maintained cityscape. Etc etc.
collingreen 4 hours ago [-]
Why would the people with control of things go out of their way to keep the rest of us alive via UBI?
I get your point but what about a step before that - since when is that anyone's goal? From a sociopathic leader perspective, vast populations are only great for armies and tech has surpassed the need for raw manpower at that scale (and the AI you fear would make militaries require even fewer people).
In your AI scenario is it more likely the ruling class gives everyone free living standard or just lets like 40% of the population die? If all the leaders get together this is the ideal outcome for them -- vast power and control without enough civilians to rise up, climate change becomes easy to reverse with vastly lower power and food needs, and reduced threat of global war because nobody has an occupying size army anymore. This is like the new version of "mutually assured destruction" as a strategy for global peace. I can't speak for the world but I can imagine some of the twisted folks currently in power in the US seeing this route as their destiny and simply them doing the best thing for humanity as a whole -- longtermists are in, nazis know a final solution when they see one, and Christians are honored to have the duty of bringing forth the second coming.
senordevnyc 13 hours ago [-]
Within a few years I think UBI or UBS will be required for people to continue living, in which case basic needs (bills) won't be a concern. There's just no way for us to transition fast enough to avoid high unemployment as AI replaces large swaths of jobs. I do worry about the ~10 year transition it will take for societal governments to react.
This strikes me as wildly optimistic. People aren't going to be able to live on UBI at a level where massive political and social unrest is averted unless it's like $2k per person per month, minimum. And I'm skeptical that the US government is going to start printing $8.5 trillion dollars of UBI in the next decade.
ehnto 6 hours ago [-]
Software is just another job in many countries, making pretty normal middle class wages. Job loss will hit us the same as any other middle class worker.
sieabahlpark 8 hours ago [-]
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tim-tday 16 hours ago [-]
50% of your waking hours are spent at work. The person you are revolves around your working hours, the problems you solve the concerns you have, the money you make the persona you display at work.
Saying you are not your work is wishful thinking. Try giving it up and check in on how much of you is still the same.
Maybe you wish to be more than your working self. That’s honorable and desirable. Just declaring it isn’t going to cut it though.
heikkilevanto 15 hours ago [-]
> Saying you are not your work is wishful thinking. Try giving it up and check in on how much of you is still the same.
I retired a few years ago, and I believe and insist that I am very much the same person.
To see a person only as what they do at work seems awfully limiting. Even when I was working, I was also a sailor, musician, woodworker, home brewer, cat person, chess player, leather guy, and a good number of other things. And yes, even after retiring, I am still a computer guy. I even like hobby coding projects more than I did.
Tor3 23 minutes ago [-]
Well said. I'm nearing retirement age and planning what I'll do, and yes, setting up my hobby room with computers and whatnot. And, as you, I've also been many other things, including some on your list, and more.
encrypted_bird 5 hours ago [-]
I only ever feel like "me" when I'm not at work. I work in retail, and every minute I'm at that job I feel my soul dying just that little bit more. But I go there because I like to not starve, which by the way I've done and lemme tell ya: it ain't fun.
Eridrus 5 hours ago [-]
Beyond this, you are what you do.
And you are what you do for other people.
Besides providing support and entertainment for our friends and families, the concrete things we do that bring value to society are through our jobs.
Society doesn't run on hanging out or hobbies.
IncreasePosts 16 hours ago [-]
I'd only become more "me" if I stopped working. Work isn't a place I go to self actualize, it's a place I go to earn money to do the things I want to do.
mhurron 16 hours ago [-]
It's also a place a great number of people have to hide who they are because they have to fit in.
Tade0 15 hours ago [-]
This.
I refrain from making jokes or even smalltalk in my new role because I noticed people don't do that here and keep meetings to the point.
rexpop 12 hours ago [-]
Super sad that the majority of your day for the majority of your life is repressive of your "self.*
IncreasePosts 10 hours ago [-]
Maybe, maybe not. Directly, I only work about 30h/week, so I actually have 86 hours of free time and 30 hours of work per week.
And, at this point I'm working for my kids, not for me. I could have easily retired years ago if I didn't have kids. I could retire right now but my kids might not inherit much if I did. I lucked into a field that paid me > 10x the median salary in the US, but my kids might not be so lucky.
So, I'm working a little harder and longer than I need to, so that my kids perhaps don't have to. 1 year of working and saving for me might, 25 years from now, mean my kids can retire 10 years earlier than they would. That seems like a worthwhile thing for me to do, even if it means I have a little less "me" time.
tayo42 9 hours ago [-]
Ill take it offline and we can circle back to that thought.
I find corporate culture to be extremely fake and it's tough to deal with. Like you ever do something simple and some one tells you wow that's amazing great job. And you think they can't be seriously right now, this was some low effort basic thing? That annoys me, corporate America demands that behavior though.
rexpop 15 hours ago [-]
This idea that you are not your job is ridiculous because of the amount of time that you spend at your work. And it’s not just fifty of your waking hours, right? There’s also time spent preparing for, commuting to, and winding down from that work. And also, you know, how much of your work are you doing in the shower? It stains the rest of your life; it soaks into everything.
This concept goes hand in hand with...
(oh, to say nothing of the many years of your life dedicated to developing this vocation through school and training or whatever. So it’s not just hours of the day; it’s years of your life that revolve around developing this vocation. It’s deeply disingenuous to suggest that it’s possible to separate yourself meaningfully from your vocation. Frankly, it’s insulting—to suggest that such separation is possible or even preferable, or to judge people for failing to separate their vocation from their identity when it’s impossible.
It makes me think of some of the impossible requirements placed on women: that they not be too slutty while at the same time not wearing a hijab or being too conservative. They get pressure from both sides, and there’s very little space, if any, that goes unjudged or unremarked upon. Having children too early, too late, or not at all—women will get flack from one corner of society or another. Likewise, workers get flack for overidentifying with their vocation, but it’s really impossible to extricate ourselves from it. For that reason, I find the whole idea offensive.)
...this concept of not making friends at work—or of distinguishing between your “work friends” and your “real friends.”
People tell me, “Your manager is not your friend. Your co-workers are not here to be your friends. You shouldn’t expect loyalty from them.” And okay, I get that. I understand the economic realities; I’ve had co-workers say things like, “Hey, I agree with you on this one, but I have a mortgage. I have kids in college. So I’m not going to speak up. I’m not going to join you in this complaint or in this effort to improve working conditions.”
I understand there are real economic constraints on the friendships, the loyalty, and the relationships that we establish in the office. I’ve also had co-workers who were loyal, empathetic, caring, honest, earnest—decent, good people—and they were groomed for management in a way that basically meant that once a week they’d be taken into a room and grilled about everyone else’s behavior. They were made into unwilling spies, and that has a chilling effect on the depth of friendships you can create.
What’s tragic about that is, as I said at the start, because so much of our lives are dedicated to our vocation, the fact that we cannot establish meaningful, trusting, loyal relationships—that we’re forced to snitch on and betray one another—is a stunning, fundamental, disgusting injustice.
It’s an enormous violation of human liberties and possibilities. It is an utterly debased compromise that we’ve made as a society, one that wrecks us. It is a deeply troubling flaw in our foundation—that the majority of our hours, days, and years are dedicated to an environment where mutual trust and free association are fundamentally compromised.
joebig 15 hours ago [-]
Well put. It's also eye-opening to watch some exceptionally lucky/gifted individuals exude an unmistakable air of deep contentment that only comes from being "time-rich" i.e. possessing complete command of your time. They get to strictly curate the projects and people around which their livelihood revolves. They can't stop gushing about it. It's like even they cannot believe that they are forming lifelong friendships and having meaningful experiences AT work; b/c everyone had told'em that life exists 'outside of work'.
Of course, that's a ride inaccessible to rest of us plebs, but it's nonetheless insightful to see what that ticket buys.
lm28469 15 hours ago [-]
> 60% of your waking hours are spent at work.
More like 15% of you work from home for a small company and shut the fuck up about wanting to be a career man. If you're not a homo consumator and play your cards right that's enough to check out of the corporate life before 45
pjmlp 15 minutes ago [-]
Great article from a place of privilege, now go tell that to the HR drone, nowadays most likely a LLM powered assistant, that my CV matters enough for a phone call.
ludston 1 hours ago [-]
I agree with this article fully, but there is a problem that most blog posts about identity don't talk about before telling you what do with your own. What is identity actually for? This is the only article I know of that talks about this:
There’s an old aphorism: “Do what you love, and you’ll never work a day in your life.”
I worked in tech, because I love tech. No other reason, really. I accepted a job, making maybe half of what I could make, elsewhere, because of the personal satisfaction I got from it, and the relationships I made, there.
When I retired, I have continued to develop software, and am currently “leaning into” AI-assisted development.
During that time, I’ve also had plenty of time to be human.
benhurmarcel 25 minutes ago [-]
I don't know if it's so universal. My opinion is rather that most jobs will make your passion become dull.
I knew some airline pilots who loved flying, but didn't feel so much like it after decades.
I got into aerospace engineering because I liked all aspects of it. A couple decades of end-to-end meetings and "TPS reports" later, I'm not as passionate anymore. Some time ago I was excited about solving a practical issue by coding some new tool myself, a year of exchanges with management and IT has made me look forward to move on.
By all measures my company is pretty good in my industry, but the corporate life just has a way of sucking away passion.
vrganj 15 hours ago [-]
I have found that aphorism does not ring true for me.
“Do what you love for work, and you'll stop loving it" seems more true to me. It always eventually turns into a chore once it is a thing you need to do.
drzaiusx11 15 hours ago [-]
I enjoy writing and designing software systems, and have since my first apple ii use in 2nd grade writing logo programs (the turtle drawing programming language)
I write software in my spare time, for fun, as it scratches a particular itch in my brain, but I also enjoy a lot of other hobbies as well: woodworking, car repair, boating, beekeeping...
Having a 9 to 5 desk job in any field is it's own type of soul crushing, even moreso as of late for myself personally. However, if I need to perform the song and dance to support my family, I'll at least do it to the tune of something I enjoy. With software engineering I can at least "get lost in" the work, so the drudgery can be temporarily forgotten until I can get home to my family and side projects.
tombert 6 hours ago [-]
I've been doing this full time for about fifteen years, which is a fairly long time (though admittedly not nearly as much as some others here).
I haven't really stopped loving writing and designing software. I still have fun writing code and coming up with clever optimization tricks. The thing that has become draining is the actual act of "having a job".
Obviously I'm grateful to have an income, and I like my coworkers, but the problem with most jobs is that the part I enjoy like ends up being a relatively small part of my day. When I worked for a BigCo there would be weeks at a time where at least half of my day is eaten by meetings and/or emails, and when you do get to work on something technical it's usually not something that's challenging or interesting. A lot of the work ends up being a bugfix or an incremental feature that really doesn't require a lot of thought.
Even startups aren't immune to this. With startups you have the advantage of not being nearly as siloed, but that comes with the double-edged sword of being stuck working on parts of the company or stack that you don't really care about. I deal with fewer meetings but I spend much more time fighting with Kubernetes YAML configurations which I find unbelievably draining, which I might have been able to avoid if I stayed at BigCo.
From 2016-2018, I worked at a MediumCo, where I was able to primarily focus on designing and writing distributed software. I was able to spend a good chunk of time figuring out how to optimize concurrent software, there weren't that many meetings, and I didn't get sick of it at all. I quit that job because I had a romanticized idea of what life at BigCo would be like; if I had the ability to see the future I would have stayed at MediumCo because I didn't like working at BigCo [1].
Anyway, my point is that given my experience, if you can actually work on the things you love, and not just a bunch of ancillary bullshit, I think it's possible you can continue to enjoy it forever. The problem is that most jobs simply aren't like that.
[1] Usual disclaimer; you might be able to dig through my history and figure out who BigCo and MediumCo are in this, and that's obviously fine, but I politely ask that you don't post the proper nouns here.
suzzer99 6 hours ago [-]
I've been coding for 30 years. We recently built a silent auction app for the university I work for, and it was as rewarding for me as the first thing I ever programmed. Sometimes the job is a chore. But for me, the challenge of building something new never gets old. Teaching junior devs is also consistently rewarding.
saltcured 15 hours ago [-]
It's a bit fractal and tautological...
On the one hand, I think a lot of the ruinous parts are the extra things it forces beyond the parts you actually love. So the problem there is you are actually doing a bunch of things you don't love, so do "work" some portion of your day.
The other is that many of us do love a bit of oppositional defiance. Doing what is demanded of us by others is definitely not doing what we love in that respect!
hinkley 15 hours ago [-]
IMO, there are more steps. Do what you love for work, someone will exploit you for it, and break your heart.
One of my kids has taken this advice, does art (really good art) for themselves and is pursuing a STEM career instead. The other is pursuing a game dev career, despite every current and former dev in his life warning him off for the last fifteen years. To quote Kissing Jessica Stein, “OY! This child will suffer.”
musicale 7 hours ago [-]
Agreed - once you have to do something for a living in order to survive (and probably under the orders of clueless management and company executives) it becomes "work" that is no longer fun.
Same way that being forced to read for school often kills the desire to read for fun.
ip26 15 hours ago [-]
It certainly killed a lot of my tinkering outside of work, but that's more a matter of when I'm already doing the thing for most of the day, even though I like it I don't always want to continue doing it for the rest of the day too when I get home.
15 hours ago [-]
ChrisMarshallNY 14 hours ago [-]
Yes and no.
I'm really glad that I left the rodent rally, but I did not want to leave tech. I just wanted to be in a place, where my work doesn't get fed into a wood-chipper, by terrible managers.
Once they were taken out of the equation, happiness ensued.
I deliberately turn down jobs that pay. Once someone pays me for my work, I'm duty-bound to give them what they pay for; even if that sucks, and I don't like doing bad work.
Bender 15 hours ago [-]
This was the same for me. The only things I did not like about tech were not really related to tech but rather bad leadership or the wrong kinds of leadership. Early in my career I worked for one of the worst and literally most criminal managed hosting organizations and it was the best boon for my career making me fearless. I learned how to remove all emotion from my experiences and off-board bad leaders. Everything else for me was being in the right place around the right people at the right time and teaching those around me everything I knew in hopes they would take over those tasks. My biggest satisfaction and what I took the most pride in was helping others with their careers and helping them off-board bad and abusive management.
ChrisMarshallNY 13 hours ago [-]
Exactly.
I am "privileged," but pretty much every other vocation has been in a place where people are getting squeezed by others or tools. Nothing new here, folks.
It's just that now, the bell tolls for tech workers, and they are suddenly getting to understand what other fields have been dealing with, for decades -centuries, in some cases.
QuantumFunnel 14 hours ago [-]
That's a very privileged thing to say about a career where the tools to replace developers did not exist
ChrisMarshallNY 14 hours ago [-]
Thanks. I needed to be put in my place.
cindyllm 14 hours ago [-]
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15 hours ago [-]
weatherlite 15 hours ago [-]
"Do what you love, and you’ll never work a day in your life."
It's possible sex workers took this advice too literally...
14 hours ago [-]
waingake 5 hours ago [-]
A small correction to this, your friends don't really like you due to any desirable attribute you have, its not an exchange process. They like you for your you-ness.
Think about a friend, what is it you like about them? I think you will find that it's not a series of attributes, but a rather unquantifiable them ness - you like the fact they are uniquely them, this is how you are seen as well. You're enough.
andai 15 hours ago [-]
We're currently in the process of designing and building machines that can do everything better, faster and cheaper than humans.
Gradually, we are succeeding.
This leaves us with two options:
a) Decouple the value of human life from economic output
b) Watch as the value of human life rapidly approaches zero
weatherlite 15 hours ago [-]
Some people indeed identify too much with their jobs, but for many others getting replaced by A.I means on very practical terms - a huge hit in salary, it means possibly retraining - maybe for years, means stress to the family (mortgage, bills etc) perhaps even stress to the marriage.
I disagree that the people near you only love you or need you for your presence; they also rely on your paycheck. Your daugher may love you for you but she needs that check to the private school, that money for nice clothes and gadgets like her friends all have and paying for that apartment in the nice neighborhood.
ehnto 6 hours ago [-]
As well, your point of view and it would seem the general default assumption in articles like this, is that people have families. We are in an unprecedented time of lonliness, there will be many people who if they lose their job they will have no support. Financial, emotional or logistical.
amunozo 13 hours ago [-]
I know it's hard, but I guess it's a good idea to live below your means in case something happens, and also save considerably to face moments of uncertainty. People with tech salaries can do it. Most of the world (and country, independently of where you live) live with much less.
CAPSLOCKSSTUCK 15 hours ago [-]
Nobody needs private school, give me a fucking break.
weatherlite 14 hours ago [-]
It's an example, you give me a fucking break.
oytis 15 hours ago [-]
People don't need self-help advise, they need a fair redistribution of increased productivity.
We don't make a big deal of our jobs because we are stupid - it's the society that assigns this or that income to this or that job, and income determines lifestyle or in worst case the survival.
logicchains 34 minutes ago [-]
>People don't need self-help advise, they need a fair redistribution of increased productivity.
The increased productivity is pretty much entirely coming from AI researchers and the companies investing in huge amounts of GPUs, and they are the ones receiving most of the windfalls, how's that not fair?
thn-gap 4 minutes ago [-]
The biggest contribution is still from the training set, whose original authors get 0 because of "fair use" in the copyright.
anonymars 6 hours ago [-]
"The job will not save you, Jimmy. It won't make you whole, it won't fill [you] up."
Yes, it's true one needs to eat, have a roof over one's head, etc. Of course you can even like what you do, make friends at work. But never forget the nature of the relationship. It won't love you back.
ilamont 16 hours ago [-]
When you meet someone, you assess them on two dimensions. The first is warmth - do you believe they mean you well? The second is competence - do you believe they're capable?
Well, sometimes.
At other times, the assessment may be based on signalling, tribalism, perception of status, personal connections, career connections, transactional goals, or other criteria.
Some people don't have or can't show warmth. Or they don't have the ability to "crack a joke at the right time" or make small talk. Should that be held against people when making assessments?
throwaway2027 16 hours ago [-]
>Should that be held against people when making assessments?
It shouldn't but it does.
ashwinnair99 16 hours ago [-]
The people who figure this out early are rare.
Most only get there after losing the job or burning out completely.
Shame it takes that long
tomekw 15 hours ago [-]
I used to BE a software engineer. Then, I experienced a 3 years long burnout and got professional help. Now I work AS an Engineering Manager.
You are not your job. Do not put your ego in what you do. That’s something I discuss a lot during my 1:1s.
satisfice 8 hours ago [-]
I’m sorry you had trouble with this, but I don’t understand the problem. I really don’t.
I am a tester. I’ve been a tester for 39 years. I’ll be a tester until I die, whether or not anyone pays me for it. At some point, you believe I am going to… collapse or something?
I have been burned out. Before I was a tester, I was a video game developer. I didn’t get the vitamins from that for the nourishment of my soul, and I DID collapse. In my experience, burnout has nothing to do with ego investment. It has to do with forcing one’s self to do something that isn’t a fit.
Once I learned about staying within my limits, I ceased having trouble with burnout. It had nothing to do with investing my identity into my chosen work.
BTW, I am a tester. I am also a father, a husband, an American, a philosopher, and a teacher. All these things are in me. As I turn 60, I am also beginning to embrace a new identity: old man.
Christian-B 2 hours ago [-]
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NalNezumi 47 minutes ago [-]
>The capacity to be fully present with another person, to see them not as a role they're playing but as a whole human being… that cannot be automated away and hopefully never will.
I agree but I don't hold such a positive view of the result of this (anymore) as the author do.
(I think?) in the book The End of Burnout, an argument is put forward about how our change in work culture is contributing to burnout. One aspect of it being that with the service economy, part of the value we provide in return for salary is not just our skills but a pleasant "persona". In previous times, our work used to be less socially oriented: farmers farm, craftmans craft, factory workers do line work. Social interaction happened ofc but wasn't as much the core for many professions. With increased automation, the social component got more important. These days it's not even surprising for many craftmans to also work close to customers or other group of people in an organization, increasing the number of interactions you need to manage by order of magnitude. You're also expected to be socially professional, "pleasant" as the article points. You're supposed to act graciously when your customers demand the impossible, or your manager doesn't understand the problem at hand. Leave your emotions, personality, and completely valid thoughts at the company main entrance: here you be a "pleasant professional".
Combined it with another trend: the onus for productivity increase is on the worker and not the employer, as it used to be in the factory floor (productivity increased with improved system, not individual effort). I think this point was from Byumg chul Han, and I can see that with the onus on productivity increase being on the worker, in a "be pleasant" job it will be more and more "sacrifice your true self to be maximum pleasant" and the result will be a horribly burnt out society.
So the authors prediction is rather dystopian. A workplace that focus on pleasantness with a detachment to meritocratic conditions will also inevitably converge to squashing of diverse thought and getting stuck in their heads.
david-gpu 15 hours ago [-]
Agreed with the title and some of the broad sentiment, but two things stood out.
> I can't delegate my capacity to sit with someone when they're confused or scared or just need to feel known
Plenty of people rely on therapists and/or chat bots to listen to them. Not everybody feels comfortable burdening their friends and family with their problems.
> We possess the means to care for everyone -- yet choose not to
There is a trade-off between social services in a broad sense and the ability to pay for them. The stronger the social safety net, the more people at the margin will choose to work less, earn less, make less of an effort. In turn, the tax base becomes smaller, and thus unable to maintain those same social services.
For example, the vast majority of people choose to retire once they reach the age where they are able to collect enough from their pension that they no longer need to work in order to get by. If we lowered the age of eligibility by a year, most people would retire a year earlier. Just like we see people retiring later in countries that have moved the eligibility to the age of e.g. 67.
With this I am not advocating to increase or decrease the current social safety net in whichever region you, dear reader, are living. I am simply pointing out some of the real-world effects of moving the needle in one direction or another.
Thus, yes, in rich countries we have collectively decided that "caring for everyone" is not the best way forward, because we see that it becomes unsustainable when you go too far. Where exactly we place the needle varies from place to place, obviously. Thinning the social safety net too far also has massive societal and economic consequences.
ricree 6 hours ago [-]
>For example, the vast majority of people choose to retire once they reach the age where they are able to collect enough from their pension that they no longer need to work in order to get by
Part of the problem is that the current system doesn't provide a great way to taper off, at least not by default. I suspect there would be a lot more people who'd keep working if it was simple to get a comparable job at 30 hours per week 25 weeks out of the year. But for those who are traditionally employed instead of contracting, the choice is often between full time or nothing.
ehnto 6 hours ago [-]
The tax base shrinks but does company revenue shrink? History so far says no, so perhaps that's where we can look for the tax dollars.
futura_heavy 15 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
MattDamonSpace 16 hours ago [-]
Fine essay overall but “We possess the means to care for everyone -- yet choose not to”
I really don’t think this is true
Etheryte 16 hours ago [-]
The US could make homelessness a thing of the past with a minuscule fraction of what it is spending on the military. It is very much a choice.
konaraddi 8 hours ago [-]
DoD spent $1.43 trillion in FY2026
Around ~1 million homeless in US
Let’s say it costs $10K/month/person so $120K/yr/person. Probably a big overestimate but gotta include healthcare and help people with long term stability.
That’s 120,000 x 1,000,000 = 120,000,000,000 or $120 billion USD.
Idk what the Nth order effects would be but yea I think what you’re saying tracks in the numbers
slopinthebag 2 hours ago [-]
You cannot just throw money at a problem like homelessness in order to fix it. That is such an incredibly reductive viewpoint. It's akin to saying 9 mothers can birth a child in a month - oh look, we solved the population decline crisis! Someone go tell Japan!
15 hours ago [-]
rmoriz 8 hours ago [-]
I also took the route of finding a new hobby (biking, all things bike mechanics, even politics) but of course it's not paying any of my bills. That's the point. While I helped making other people very rich, I never owned shares or got a bonus after an exit.
musicale 8 hours ago [-]
"X. Employee, 19xx-20xx. Beloved co-worker and technical specialist. Sacrificed health and happiness to deliver value to shareholders."
rmoriz 4 hours ago [-]
Well. Nobody remembers me already so I doubt they will even care when a truck hits me on my bike.
block_dagger 15 hours ago [-]
One's job and the rest of one's life are not clearly delineated. Best friends and spouses are often met through work, which is inexplicably linked with one's actual performance on the job. This article treats them as if they are isolated. Also, it's worth noting that one's sense of purpose (as in career) is important to happiness, just as being part of a strong social network in one's personal life is. Balance is key.
TheRoque 40 minutes ago [-]
Meh, I feel the opposite. Even though I come from a culture that values separation of work and free time a lot (France), I still feel like it's copium. The fact is, if you spend most of your valuable brain time on a task, your brain starts to get shaped for such task, therefore I don't see why you can't identify yourself as your job. The stuff the author talks about, empathy, ability to joke etc. is also heavily influenced by your day-to-day activity, your job. Heck, there are even some people who claim they became aphantasic and lost all capacity for dreams and creativity after working too much with computers.
Anyways, I get the point of the post, capitalism sucks and makes most of our existence as worth as cattle, that is, if we don't value the stuff outside work.
melenaboija 6 hours ago [-]
Super nice read.
> The harder version is asking yourself: if my job title disappeared tomorrow, would I still be me?
This part, though, misses an important point: status and wealth. And I think it’s especially directed at those.
It can be beautiful to identify yourself with your job if you are a professor or a social worker. The problem is identifying yourself with the social status provided by your job (paycheck and power), not the work itself.
OJFord 16 hours ago [-]
I am not my age or gender either in this sense, but I am still going to say 'I am a man' and 'I am x years old', because I am fluent in English.
bitwize 2 hours ago [-]
I really don't care about my intrinsic value as a person. Without this line of work I couldn't make enough to support my household by myself, which I must now do.
hatmanstack 4 hours ago [-]
How has Severance not been mentioned in this Thread. Definite Ricken Vibes.
jojobas 7 hours ago [-]
You are what utility you deliver to others. I doubt they'll keep feeding, dressing and sheltering you for your ability to connect, be present and whatever.
beastman82 16 hours ago [-]
I want to thank everyone who hates work, is mentally checked out of their jobs and quiet quitting etc.
It makes it much easier for me to distinguish myself as a hard worker who cares about the business being successful. It also helps me keep my job during layoffs because I can assure you the managers have noticed.
When you are old and have lots of formative experiences that are not work-based, we can shake hands and mutually appreciate each other's motives and respective outcomes.
garciasn 15 hours ago [-]
I am arguably a successful employee in a tech-focused role. I enjoy my job and others seem to feel I'm good at what I do.
That said: I am NOT at all interested in identifying myself in social situations by my job. When someone asks what I do, I respond that I work in tech. I am not interested in giving more details nor talking in-depth about what I do to others I have just met.
Why? Because that's not at all what makes me...me. I am far more interested in what I do outside of work (reading...a lot, listening to music, spending as much time w/my family as possible, traveling, spending time at my lake home, etc). That is what I work to do; enjoy my life.
I realize this is an uncommon opinion, but I find it SO VERY ODD that folks are OBSESSED about their jobs and make it a central point of their existence to those outside of their specific industry. I do NOT care what someone does for their day-to-day; it's unlikely it will have any impact on me or my friendship with them. I want to know what they bring to the table in our current or potential social situation and the fact that they make PowerPoint presentations for whomever to look at, ask a few questions answered in the presentation's appendix, and never think about again doesn't do anything to further any of that.
marconey 15 hours ago [-]
Well said, thanks
I’d much rather know and learn about someone’s passion for woodworking, hill walking, flower arranging, whatever they enjoy doing in their free time, rather than having to talk about their (or my!) work.
chrisweekly 15 hours ago [-]
Yeah! IMHO "What are you into / what do you care about or do for fun?" should replace "What do you do? [ie, what's your profession / where do you work]" as the default ice-breaker. More interesting, less reductive or competitive.
KellyCriterion 15 hours ago [-]
So you are saying that your job does not have any impact on your personality, despite you are there for 8+h a day?
The environment you are in for hours (even if its great, you are forced) does not shapre who you are?
And regarding social interactions: Its no difference for you interacting with people from your mind-liked crowd in opposion to someone who runs a gun-shop-chain? For sure, a constructed example, but Id say there is for sure some difference when acting with the different groups?
Arainach 13 hours ago [-]
> So you are saying that your job does not have any impact on your personality, despite you are there for 8+h a day
(Not OP) It's not a core part of it, no. I'm a person who likes solving problems and has an attention to detail. If I see that something is wrong I have a desire to fix it regardless of it's my responsibility or not. This could be finding an outdated piece of documentation at work or finding a piece of litter on the street.
These traits make me an effective software engineer (up to the senior level, then I have to fight against those parts of my personality and focus on specific high-impact things if I want to succeed at Staff+), but they are a part of who I am totally independent from my career.
Software engineering is a field that I am good at and that pays exceptionally well, but I could be happy utilizing these traits in any number of careers. Were I financially independent, my dream career would probably be something closer to the people who design and build elaborate contraptions for stage shows such as Cirque du Soleil.
15 hours ago [-]
manmal 15 hours ago [-]
It sounds like you have a privileged life, and a hard time getting into the shoes of people who don’t.
15 hours ago [-]
loglog 15 hours ago [-]
Traveling? Lake home? I am glad to go to work just to not listen to my wife how we are so poor and cannot have nice things.
jazz9k 15 hours ago [-]
Do you have any friends? Your job is a good topic that allows you to find something in common with another person.
Tor3 3 minutes ago [-]
As the sister comment said: "Not if they work outside of tech…"
And not even then, in many cases. I know exactly what I do, but having to explain that to anyone, including people in tech, is difficult.
And, you know, it's not interesting to talk about. Talking about that is fine at the job, that's what we do. I have no interest in talking about that when I'm not working. Instead I want to talk about other things. Hobbies, activities, music, books, whatever. Enquring about someone's job will not lead to that at all.
galleywest200 15 hours ago [-]
I prefer to ask people what they do for fun when looking for something in common, as opposed to what they do for work.
Some people are recently laid off, and asking what they do for work might sting a bit.
tdeck 6 hours ago [-]
I like asking both, but these days a lot of the "what do you do for fun" answers are just consumption hobbies (e.g. I watch X show on Netflix) that people use to switch off after a long day of work. It's easier to think of interesting follow up questions about someone's work than about these kinds of hobbies. Even if (especially if) the work is something completely different from what I'm doing.
fcarraldo 15 hours ago [-]
Not if they work outside of tech…
15 hours ago [-]
Arainach 16 hours ago [-]
> It also helps me keep my job during layoffs because I can assure you the managers have noticed.
If you believe the managers who interact with you have any say in who gets laid off, then your understanding of how business works isn't nearly as good as you seem to believe it is.
yurishimo 15 hours ago [-]
Depends on the size of company. I’ve definitely worked for companies where I know for a fact that my manager had the final say.
alpha_squared 15 hours ago [-]
Something tells me you haven't been laid off before. I think the overconfidence you're displaying here will be shattered if that were to happen. I hope it doesn't happen to you, but if it does I hope you remember that you are not your job.
cj 15 hours ago [-]
I think it has a lot to do with the size of the organization. If you're at a relatively small company, it's not that hard to identify and retain the top performers.
If you're at a faceless megacorp, that's a different story.
alpha_squared 13 hours ago [-]
You can be laid off at small companies too. For example, a company may be running out of runway and it's looking increasingly likely the next round of funding will not materialize in time. It needs to control expenses and extend runway an extra 6 months, but everyone's a "top-performer". Who gets laid off? It's likely going to be those adding features (e.g. product folks), not those maintaining the business (accounting, devops). We can get into whether it's a good idea to kick off the death spiral for a company in that way, but my point is that no one is immune to layoffs, not at any scale, except maybe the founders.
cj 13 hours ago [-]
> everyone's a "top-performer"
Except, that’s very rarely the case IME.
We’re talking about improving, not guaranteeing, your odds long term employment.
asveikau 15 hours ago [-]
> worker who cares about the business being successful
In most cases, this is a sucker mentality that makes you vulnerable to abusive employers. You will stress yourself out making your boss richer. They won't care or make reciprocal gestures. They'd be happy to replace you should you become inconvenient.
yurishimo 15 hours ago [-]
It’s not about stressing yourself out; that’s something you can ultimately control (though admittedly, many people are bad at separating the two) but more about _how good you are at putting on a show_ of giving a shit.
There is a non zero chance that the company I work for pivots into some weird crypto niche (low, but we’re already fintech-y). If that happens, I’m out, but no way in hell am I gonna pivot my work personality overnight because of a business decision made by the company’s board and investors.
If I need to put on a happy face for my boss to keep my job, then I’m gonna do it because I can’t afford not to at the moment. That’s not to say there is no line, but being a generally positive person in the workplace is a role I’m fine with playing. It costs me very little personally and opens a lot of doors because let’s face it, nobody likes working with a loathsome human being, even if they’re right.
Am I a sucker? Maybe by your definition, but I don’t feel like one currently.
asveikau 15 hours ago [-]
> Am I a sucker? Maybe by your definition, but I don’t feel like one currently.
Part of being a sucker is not thinking you're a sucker.
> more about _how good you are at putting on a show_ of giving a shit.
> If I need to put on a happy face for my boss to keep my job,
OK, this is an entirely different thing. This is being dishonest.
dolebirchwood 15 hours ago [-]
I've known people who survived multiple rounds of layoffs, not because they were "distinguished", but because they were the cheapest. Meanwhile, their more talented counterparts got the ax for being too expensive. Simple as that.
ThrowawayR2 15 hours ago [-]
I mostly agree with the parent post. There certainly are roles where the entire scope of the job is to convert Jira tickets to code and nothing else and nobody will blame you for being a checked out 9-5er in such places but that isn't the audience of HN. Most here are software engineers who get fairly broad latitude to exercise judgment and expertise/education in furtherance of business goals and that's they get the FAANG-sized paycheck and RSUs/stock grants for. And you better believe colleagues in those roles notice who is just doing the minimum and who is helping to achieve goals.
paganel 30 minutes ago [-]
You only care about “business goals” under a certain age, I’d say 35-ish, afterwards, if you hadn’t realized by that point that it’s just a paycheck and nothing more then no mindfulness trickery not any “let’s-experience-things”-consoomerism is going to fill the spiritual void inside of you.
Could be 35-ish of age, like in my case, could be later, could be earlier, but at some point that realization will have to come otherwise you’ll remain an empty corpse throughout the rest of it all.
noisy_boy 15 hours ago [-]
> It also helps me keep my job during layoffs because I can assure you the managers have noticed.
I can assure you that when they are laying off to cut costs, which is most of the time, what they notice is A) the old/expensive ones who can be let go without any major disruptions and B) the "expendables" such as contractors or those they have a personal dislike of - the latter usually has not much to do with hard work and a lot more to do with perception. Category A is to meet cost targets while category B can also help with number targets.
If you think your hard work alone will save you, I pray that life spares you that rude shock.
oncallthrow 15 hours ago [-]
> It also helps me keep my job during layoffs because I can assure you the managers have noticed.
I got to this bit before realising this is satire
Arainach 15 hours ago [-]
I have no faith that this is satire since America is full of people who underestimate the impact of luck and privilege in the course of their life in favor of a view that everything is due to their own personal efforts and the suffering of others is obviously due to their personal defects. These people will relentlessly defend any actions by the owner class without realizing that they themselves are not in that class and never will be. They say things like this a lot.
Tade0 15 hours ago [-]
This approach makes huge sense when you're a contractor who is aiming to graduate into a staff engineer.
dgxyz 15 hours ago [-]
Yeah that.
I don’t put any effort in now. Still get paid the same. Now have more time for better stuff.
testing22321 15 hours ago [-]
> It also helps me keep my job during layoffs because I can assure you the managers have noticed.
Sounds like you’re young and early in your career.
Wait till you’re part of a layoff where an entire division or arm of the company is axed in a 750 person headcount reduction.
Doesn’t matter how good you are, how many years of service you have or even if the CEO loves you.
You’ll be out.
ThrowawayR2 15 hours ago [-]
It does matter because it's your network that gets you your next job and colleagues remember who was doing a good job and helping meet goals and those who didn't.
testing22321 13 hours ago [-]
We were talking about keeping a job, not finding a new one.
sodapopcan 15 hours ago [-]
Hate to say it but very appropriate username.
lm28469 15 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
dang 15 hours ago [-]
We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines and ignoring our requests to stop. You can't do this here, no matter how wrong another comment is or you feel it is.
The company has ex Fly.io people:;dissent is flagged. What a surprise. Fly.io will still end like Starfighter, where abusing HN for marketing did not work.
paganel 38 minutes ago [-]
This text feels like AI-slop, or at least AI-“improved”. No life in it, lots of (by definition, artificial) cheesiness, the usual, I mean.
rvz 16 hours ago [-]
This was obvious to those who value their time over the job given to them and all the office politics, performative meetings and the blame-game that comes with it.
anovikov 17 hours ago [-]
Indeed, thinking that people and the way they extract money from the environment is same is ridiculous and i've been teaching my kid from childhood that it's just wrong. We've been conditioned to think that way from the industrial era. I hope now people will finally learn to think different.
beeflet 4 hours ago [-]
>But warmth. Empathy. The ability to sit with someone in their confusion and make them feel understood. The ability to crack a joke at exactly the right moment and remind someone that they're not alone. The capacity to be fully present with another person, to see them not as a role they're playing but as a whole human being… that cannot be automated away and hopefully never will.
Yeah it can. People have been using LLMs as therapists and digital friends for a while now. All of the soft skills were the first to get automated.
> My technical skills are being disrupted by machines - that's fine I'll go do other things.
The only way to ease the anxiety in people isn't with fluff about their 'human worth', but rather to help them envision other tangible and plausible ways in which they can provide for themselves.
The cold reality, in my opinion, is that the things we value about ourselves are generally not that valuable to others. I love my own personality and humanity, my soul if you will, but nobody's paying me for it, and so I have to value it accordingly.
Hell, let me go even darker: there are billions of souls on this planet. They're not a rare thing like say, gold. They're very easily produced, by two people getting it on. That leads to a harsh conclusion: human beings aren't that valuable as individuals. We are in fact very disposable and replaceable.
Those living in the first world have been shielded from that harsh reality for some time, but it's starting to show up on our doorstep and we don't like it, and due to our inexperience with it we haven't learned how to adapt to it.
It scares me too, but I refuse to be in denial about it.
Don't let capitalism do this to you. Not everything with value is paid in this system, only things which make the buyer more money.
To your friends and family as well? Or just your employer?
You're describing things that may well be true for a lot of employers, but fall apart outside of that context.
for the op, it might not define you but it does define you for others.
Maybe this was Diogenes's observation.
But this modern society we live in... it's just not structured that way anymore. Most of us live in little silos now: our job and our atomic family.
And we've become so used to depending on it that it looks very unlikely to change until/unless shit hits the fan. Your average person doesn't know how to grow their own food or build their own shelter, and even if they do it's far less convenient than just getting a paycheck and relying on the supermarket.
It's often amazing to me that the whole edifice of it functions as long as it does. Sometimes when I'm in the CBD here in Melbourne, I sit there marveling at the thousands of people I see wandering the streets, all of whom are somehow employed by someone to do something such that they have enough money to keep afloat.
And, you know the sad part? A lot of places don't allow you to even try to learn. For example, my current place that I rent has a yard (it's a nice little trailer home), but I'm not allowed to have a garden. They even chopped down the nice tree that was growing in the yard when I first moved in.
Oh, I can certainly try to grow stuff inside in containers, but that means I gotta get containers (which I can't afford) and I get an increased risk of bugs & dirt being in the house (not a fan thanks).
Efficiency is the metric of nature. Thinking about human life in any other terms than input and output is objectively a luxury, afforded only to societies with surplus resources. Calling it "framing" feels a little disingenuous.
Gerasimov? Is it you?
Well I think it's nothing more than a social norm, and an easy one to avoid at that. People are mostly asking what's your job because that's a standard icebreaker.
Since I (mostly) recovered from burnout, and learnt that I'm actually not my job, I took the habit to never automatically ask people what is their job, at least not for ice breaking.
You can talk about their hobbies, their kids, their tastes ... because those are the real topics that will define if you bond or not anyway. And yes some people sometimes do have an interesting job that is worth talking about but when it happens, you will inevitably talk about it anyway.
You have that backwards though! :-)
We'd get to know people in our community, often because they were born in to it, then we'd fit in to productive roles.
The way we do it these days is a recent, post industrial revolution, mode of society.
I’ll add that if you see your colleagues as anything else than primarily working for money, you’re a bit delusional unless you know for a fact they could not work for the rest of their lives and be financially fine. Of course there are other reasons to work than money, but the way the system is set up you’re not supposed to care more about them than about cold hard cash.
I've known people for decades without knowing what their job is, or I only have a vague idea about their job. It's not important for people here. The person itself is important. There are other things than the job which define the person. I know this sounds very strange for Americans, but, in fact, the strangeness is the other way around.
I'm not sure that I can say "I am not my job" [mostly because I actually very much enjoy what I do there], but I can definitely say "you are not your job". Because I don't even know your job, nor do I much care.
True, but losing your job is still a big deal. It often means that you lose your income, your health insurance (in the US at least), many (if not most) of your daily interactions with other people, and your social status.
> My technical skills are being disrupted by machines - that's fine I'll go do other things.
As others have noted, it's great to not actually need the paycheck you are working for.
> As others have noted, it's great to not actually need the paycheck you are working for.
Um. Yes. There's a link on "other things". It's to a site for a bike tour. The author seems to be implying they don't really need a job.
I still remember hearing a group of homeless people near the cable car turntable at Powell and Market in SF talking about the days when they used to be printers. That was, for several hundred years, a stable, well-paying job.
They say this to a group of people that often struggles with all of these but still have managed to make a living off of solving technical problems in the past. Don't worry, you can just fall back on your famously great people skills!
Luckily, in the US, you can get another one much more quickly than anywhere else in the world, and be payed several multiples of what anyone else is payed.
Depending on the economic conditions for the year, it can still take months:
> To illustrate the recent trajectory: one analysis found that in January 2023 it took job seekers 268 days on average to land a job offer, whereas by August 2024 this had improved to 182 days (about 6 months) (How Long Does it Take to Find a Job in 2024?). Another dataset focusing on tech jobseekers showed a similar trend – those in 2024 took about 247 days on average to secure a “good” job, down from 281 days in 2023.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/average-job-search-time-tech-...
I'm not saying the tech job situation in America isn't bad - but the world dances to America's fiddle, and its frustrating hearing Americans complain about how hard their situation is while their boot is firmly planted on my neck
It is the wealthy capitalist class that has the boot planted on all of our necks.
I do recognize that the outcome is worse for some people than others, but keeping us fighting each other is how they continue to maintain power.
Even if you're right (and I find that a bit questionable), it doesn't really feel like it was prompted to go on this "Fuck yeah America!!!" speech.
There is no rah rah here; literally says in next comment how Americans have their (American's) boots on their (parent's) neck.
Ok that's cool and all but many of us have bills to pay. Bike trips don't pay the bills. Software people have been economically advantaged up until now that they can go and do stuff like that.
UBI has problems that far as I know haven't been addressed. Vast numbers of people no longer being occupied doesn't seem like it would lead to a healthy society. And how do you uphold democracy when the government is effectively handing out the paychecks?
As for people not being occupied, the theory is that since ubi doesn't stop if you find employment, it would lead to less idleness than the current means-tested social safety nets. In test cases though it seems to depend a lot on culture, Finnish communities saw no difference in employment while Indian rates of business formation tripled.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46977175
Not quite UK, and not very big, but somewhat promising :)
>How do you uphold democracy
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...
>Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.
Can't uphold what isn't there, lol
As for how do we avoid becoming WALL-E blobs... elite opinion seems to suggest the UBI will be just enough to prevent people from going into the streets with pitchforks, but not enough for a dignified life. (Enough to live in ze pod and eat ze proverbial bugs.)
I don't see employment being a very big thing (unless AI creates some kinda fake jobs economy to pacify the humans, which would be a rational thing to do).
The crisis of meaning is going to be worse than the economic crisis, and I think people would literally pay to work rather than question their existence on such a deep level.
Beyond fake jobs and human-only jobs (robot can't replace the cute barista at Starbucks!), I think entrepreneurship will be the only real vehicle. So... basically how it already is today.
Rulers have given stipends to artists and scholars for hundreds of years. There's hardly anything new about it.
Make the art or science that satisfies the duke or the glorious district chairman and you will be on the receiving end of these benefits.
UBI makes it even harder to find people for that kind of jobs. Not paying any social benefits and increasing the pressure on the unemployed to take these jobs is much more interesting for everyone that is not unemployed. Please don't judge me for writing this. It's the feeling I have, not my view.
I'd say UBI would make it easier to find people working in demanding jobs because you could to them part time, so they don't wear you down as much. It's much easier to work as a nurse for 20 hours a week.
And then re-distribute to each person accordingly. That ain't happening, no govt will be willing to try that, and rich won't let that happen, they will become slightly rich from very rich. that just ain't happening.
I get your point but what about a step before that - since when is that anyone's goal? From a sociopathic leader perspective, vast populations are only great for armies and tech has surpassed the need for raw manpower at that scale (and the AI you fear would make militaries require even fewer people).
In your AI scenario is it more likely the ruling class gives everyone free living standard or just lets like 40% of the population die? If all the leaders get together this is the ideal outcome for them -- vast power and control without enough civilians to rise up, climate change becomes easy to reverse with vastly lower power and food needs, and reduced threat of global war because nobody has an occupying size army anymore. This is like the new version of "mutually assured destruction" as a strategy for global peace. I can't speak for the world but I can imagine some of the twisted folks currently in power in the US seeing this route as their destiny and simply them doing the best thing for humanity as a whole -- longtermists are in, nazis know a final solution when they see one, and Christians are honored to have the duty of bringing forth the second coming.
This strikes me as wildly optimistic. People aren't going to be able to live on UBI at a level where massive political and social unrest is averted unless it's like $2k per person per month, minimum. And I'm skeptical that the US government is going to start printing $8.5 trillion dollars of UBI in the next decade.
Saying you are not your work is wishful thinking. Try giving it up and check in on how much of you is still the same.
Maybe you wish to be more than your working self. That’s honorable and desirable. Just declaring it isn’t going to cut it though.
I retired a few years ago, and I believe and insist that I am very much the same person.
To see a person only as what they do at work seems awfully limiting. Even when I was working, I was also a sailor, musician, woodworker, home brewer, cat person, chess player, leather guy, and a good number of other things. And yes, even after retiring, I am still a computer guy. I even like hobby coding projects more than I did.
And you are what you do for other people.
Besides providing support and entertainment for our friends and families, the concrete things we do that bring value to society are through our jobs.
Society doesn't run on hanging out or hobbies.
I refrain from making jokes or even smalltalk in my new role because I noticed people don't do that here and keep meetings to the point.
And, at this point I'm working for my kids, not for me. I could have easily retired years ago if I didn't have kids. I could retire right now but my kids might not inherit much if I did. I lucked into a field that paid me > 10x the median salary in the US, but my kids might not be so lucky.
So, I'm working a little harder and longer than I need to, so that my kids perhaps don't have to. 1 year of working and saving for me might, 25 years from now, mean my kids can retire 10 years earlier than they would. That seems like a worthwhile thing for me to do, even if it means I have a little less "me" time.
I find corporate culture to be extremely fake and it's tough to deal with. Like you ever do something simple and some one tells you wow that's amazing great job. And you think they can't be seriously right now, this was some low effort basic thing? That annoys me, corporate America demands that behavior though.
This concept goes hand in hand with...
(oh, to say nothing of the many years of your life dedicated to developing this vocation through school and training or whatever. So it’s not just hours of the day; it’s years of your life that revolve around developing this vocation. It’s deeply disingenuous to suggest that it’s possible to separate yourself meaningfully from your vocation. Frankly, it’s insulting—to suggest that such separation is possible or even preferable, or to judge people for failing to separate their vocation from their identity when it’s impossible.
It makes me think of some of the impossible requirements placed on women: that they not be too slutty while at the same time not wearing a hijab or being too conservative. They get pressure from both sides, and there’s very little space, if any, that goes unjudged or unremarked upon. Having children too early, too late, or not at all—women will get flack from one corner of society or another. Likewise, workers get flack for overidentifying with their vocation, but it’s really impossible to extricate ourselves from it. For that reason, I find the whole idea offensive.)
...this concept of not making friends at work—or of distinguishing between your “work friends” and your “real friends.”
People tell me, “Your manager is not your friend. Your co-workers are not here to be your friends. You shouldn’t expect loyalty from them.” And okay, I get that. I understand the economic realities; I’ve had co-workers say things like, “Hey, I agree with you on this one, but I have a mortgage. I have kids in college. So I’m not going to speak up. I’m not going to join you in this complaint or in this effort to improve working conditions.”
I understand there are real economic constraints on the friendships, the loyalty, and the relationships that we establish in the office. I’ve also had co-workers who were loyal, empathetic, caring, honest, earnest—decent, good people—and they were groomed for management in a way that basically meant that once a week they’d be taken into a room and grilled about everyone else’s behavior. They were made into unwilling spies, and that has a chilling effect on the depth of friendships you can create. What’s tragic about that is, as I said at the start, because so much of our lives are dedicated to our vocation, the fact that we cannot establish meaningful, trusting, loyal relationships—that we’re forced to snitch on and betray one another—is a stunning, fundamental, disgusting injustice.
It’s an enormous violation of human liberties and possibilities. It is an utterly debased compromise that we’ve made as a society, one that wrecks us. It is a deeply troubling flaw in our foundation—that the majority of our hours, days, and years are dedicated to an environment where mutual trust and free association are fundamentally compromised.
Of course, that's a ride inaccessible to rest of us plebs, but it's nonetheless insightful to see what that ticket buys.
More like 15% of you work from home for a small company and shut the fuck up about wanting to be a career man. If you're not a homo consumator and play your cards right that's enough to check out of the corporate life before 45
https://danielkeogh.com/blog/post/On%20not%20being%20miserab...
I worked in tech, because I love tech. No other reason, really. I accepted a job, making maybe half of what I could make, elsewhere, because of the personal satisfaction I got from it, and the relationships I made, there.
When I retired, I have continued to develop software, and am currently “leaning into” AI-assisted development.
During that time, I’ve also had plenty of time to be human.
I knew some airline pilots who loved flying, but didn't feel so much like it after decades.
I got into aerospace engineering because I liked all aspects of it. A couple decades of end-to-end meetings and "TPS reports" later, I'm not as passionate anymore. Some time ago I was excited about solving a practical issue by coding some new tool myself, a year of exchanges with management and IT has made me look forward to move on.
By all measures my company is pretty good in my industry, but the corporate life just has a way of sucking away passion.
“Do what you love for work, and you'll stop loving it" seems more true to me. It always eventually turns into a chore once it is a thing you need to do.
I write software in my spare time, for fun, as it scratches a particular itch in my brain, but I also enjoy a lot of other hobbies as well: woodworking, car repair, boating, beekeeping...
Having a 9 to 5 desk job in any field is it's own type of soul crushing, even moreso as of late for myself personally. However, if I need to perform the song and dance to support my family, I'll at least do it to the tune of something I enjoy. With software engineering I can at least "get lost in" the work, so the drudgery can be temporarily forgotten until I can get home to my family and side projects.
I haven't really stopped loving writing and designing software. I still have fun writing code and coming up with clever optimization tricks. The thing that has become draining is the actual act of "having a job".
Obviously I'm grateful to have an income, and I like my coworkers, but the problem with most jobs is that the part I enjoy like ends up being a relatively small part of my day. When I worked for a BigCo there would be weeks at a time where at least half of my day is eaten by meetings and/or emails, and when you do get to work on something technical it's usually not something that's challenging or interesting. A lot of the work ends up being a bugfix or an incremental feature that really doesn't require a lot of thought.
Even startups aren't immune to this. With startups you have the advantage of not being nearly as siloed, but that comes with the double-edged sword of being stuck working on parts of the company or stack that you don't really care about. I deal with fewer meetings but I spend much more time fighting with Kubernetes YAML configurations which I find unbelievably draining, which I might have been able to avoid if I stayed at BigCo.
From 2016-2018, I worked at a MediumCo, where I was able to primarily focus on designing and writing distributed software. I was able to spend a good chunk of time figuring out how to optimize concurrent software, there weren't that many meetings, and I didn't get sick of it at all. I quit that job because I had a romanticized idea of what life at BigCo would be like; if I had the ability to see the future I would have stayed at MediumCo because I didn't like working at BigCo [1].
Anyway, my point is that given my experience, if you can actually work on the things you love, and not just a bunch of ancillary bullshit, I think it's possible you can continue to enjoy it forever. The problem is that most jobs simply aren't like that.
[1] Usual disclaimer; you might be able to dig through my history and figure out who BigCo and MediumCo are in this, and that's obviously fine, but I politely ask that you don't post the proper nouns here.
On the one hand, I think a lot of the ruinous parts are the extra things it forces beyond the parts you actually love. So the problem there is you are actually doing a bunch of things you don't love, so do "work" some portion of your day.
The other is that many of us do love a bit of oppositional defiance. Doing what is demanded of us by others is definitely not doing what we love in that respect!
One of my kids has taken this advice, does art (really good art) for themselves and is pursuing a STEM career instead. The other is pursuing a game dev career, despite every current and former dev in his life warning him off for the last fifteen years. To quote Kissing Jessica Stein, “OY! This child will suffer.”
Same way that being forced to read for school often kills the desire to read for fun.
I'm really glad that I left the rodent rally, but I did not want to leave tech. I just wanted to be in a place, where my work doesn't get fed into a wood-chipper, by terrible managers.
Once they were taken out of the equation, happiness ensued.
I deliberately turn down jobs that pay. Once someone pays me for my work, I'm duty-bound to give them what they pay for; even if that sucks, and I don't like doing bad work.
I am "privileged," but pretty much every other vocation has been in a place where people are getting squeezed by others or tools. Nothing new here, folks.
It's just that now, the bell tolls for tech workers, and they are suddenly getting to understand what other fields have been dealing with, for decades -centuries, in some cases.
It's possible sex workers took this advice too literally...
Think about a friend, what is it you like about them? I think you will find that it's not a series of attributes, but a rather unquantifiable them ness - you like the fact they are uniquely them, this is how you are seen as well. You're enough.
Gradually, we are succeeding.
This leaves us with two options:
a) Decouple the value of human life from economic output
b) Watch as the value of human life rapidly approaches zero
We don't make a big deal of our jobs because we are stupid - it's the society that assigns this or that income to this or that job, and income determines lifestyle or in worst case the survival.
The increased productivity is pretty much entirely coming from AI researchers and the companies investing in huge amounts of GPUs, and they are the ones receiving most of the windfalls, how's that not fair?
https://youtu.be/NR1g30pQi4I?t=106s
Yes, it's true one needs to eat, have a roof over one's head, etc. Of course you can even like what you do, make friends at work. But never forget the nature of the relationship. It won't love you back.
Well, sometimes.
At other times, the assessment may be based on signalling, tribalism, perception of status, personal connections, career connections, transactional goals, or other criteria.
Some people don't have or can't show warmth. Or they don't have the ability to "crack a joke at the right time" or make small talk. Should that be held against people when making assessments?
It shouldn't but it does.
You are not your job. Do not put your ego in what you do. That’s something I discuss a lot during my 1:1s.
I am a tester. I’ve been a tester for 39 years. I’ll be a tester until I die, whether or not anyone pays me for it. At some point, you believe I am going to… collapse or something?
I have been burned out. Before I was a tester, I was a video game developer. I didn’t get the vitamins from that for the nourishment of my soul, and I DID collapse. In my experience, burnout has nothing to do with ego investment. It has to do with forcing one’s self to do something that isn’t a fit.
Once I learned about staying within my limits, I ceased having trouble with burnout. It had nothing to do with investing my identity into my chosen work.
BTW, I am a tester. I am also a father, a husband, an American, a philosopher, and a teacher. All these things are in me. As I turn 60, I am also beginning to embrace a new identity: old man.
I agree but I don't hold such a positive view of the result of this (anymore) as the author do.
(I think?) in the book The End of Burnout, an argument is put forward about how our change in work culture is contributing to burnout. One aspect of it being that with the service economy, part of the value we provide in return for salary is not just our skills but a pleasant "persona". In previous times, our work used to be less socially oriented: farmers farm, craftmans craft, factory workers do line work. Social interaction happened ofc but wasn't as much the core for many professions. With increased automation, the social component got more important. These days it's not even surprising for many craftmans to also work close to customers or other group of people in an organization, increasing the number of interactions you need to manage by order of magnitude. You're also expected to be socially professional, "pleasant" as the article points. You're supposed to act graciously when your customers demand the impossible, or your manager doesn't understand the problem at hand. Leave your emotions, personality, and completely valid thoughts at the company main entrance: here you be a "pleasant professional".
Combined it with another trend: the onus for productivity increase is on the worker and not the employer, as it used to be in the factory floor (productivity increased with improved system, not individual effort). I think this point was from Byumg chul Han, and I can see that with the onus on productivity increase being on the worker, in a "be pleasant" job it will be more and more "sacrifice your true self to be maximum pleasant" and the result will be a horribly burnt out society.
So the authors prediction is rather dystopian. A workplace that focus on pleasantness with a detachment to meritocratic conditions will also inevitably converge to squashing of diverse thought and getting stuck in their heads.
> I can't delegate my capacity to sit with someone when they're confused or scared or just need to feel known
Plenty of people rely on therapists and/or chat bots to listen to them. Not everybody feels comfortable burdening their friends and family with their problems.
> We possess the means to care for everyone -- yet choose not to
There is a trade-off between social services in a broad sense and the ability to pay for them. The stronger the social safety net, the more people at the margin will choose to work less, earn less, make less of an effort. In turn, the tax base becomes smaller, and thus unable to maintain those same social services.
For example, the vast majority of people choose to retire once they reach the age where they are able to collect enough from their pension that they no longer need to work in order to get by. If we lowered the age of eligibility by a year, most people would retire a year earlier. Just like we see people retiring later in countries that have moved the eligibility to the age of e.g. 67.
With this I am not advocating to increase or decrease the current social safety net in whichever region you, dear reader, are living. I am simply pointing out some of the real-world effects of moving the needle in one direction or another.
Thus, yes, in rich countries we have collectively decided that "caring for everyone" is not the best way forward, because we see that it becomes unsustainable when you go too far. Where exactly we place the needle varies from place to place, obviously. Thinning the social safety net too far also has massive societal and economic consequences.
Part of the problem is that the current system doesn't provide a great way to taper off, at least not by default. I suspect there would be a lot more people who'd keep working if it was simple to get a comparable job at 30 hours per week 25 weeks out of the year. But for those who are traditionally employed instead of contracting, the choice is often between full time or nothing.
I really don’t think this is true
Around ~1 million homeless in US
Let’s say it costs $10K/month/person so $120K/yr/person. Probably a big overestimate but gotta include healthcare and help people with long term stability.
That’s 120,000 x 1,000,000 = 120,000,000,000 or $120 billion USD.
Idk what the Nth order effects would be but yea I think what you’re saying tracks in the numbers
Anyways, I get the point of the post, capitalism sucks and makes most of our existence as worth as cattle, that is, if we don't value the stuff outside work.
> The harder version is asking yourself: if my job title disappeared tomorrow, would I still be me?
This part, though, misses an important point: status and wealth. And I think it’s especially directed at those.
It can be beautiful to identify yourself with your job if you are a professor or a social worker. The problem is identifying yourself with the social status provided by your job (paycheck and power), not the work itself.
It makes it much easier for me to distinguish myself as a hard worker who cares about the business being successful. It also helps me keep my job during layoffs because I can assure you the managers have noticed.
When you are old and have lots of formative experiences that are not work-based, we can shake hands and mutually appreciate each other's motives and respective outcomes.
That said: I am NOT at all interested in identifying myself in social situations by my job. When someone asks what I do, I respond that I work in tech. I am not interested in giving more details nor talking in-depth about what I do to others I have just met.
Why? Because that's not at all what makes me...me. I am far more interested in what I do outside of work (reading...a lot, listening to music, spending as much time w/my family as possible, traveling, spending time at my lake home, etc). That is what I work to do; enjoy my life.
I realize this is an uncommon opinion, but I find it SO VERY ODD that folks are OBSESSED about their jobs and make it a central point of their existence to those outside of their specific industry. I do NOT care what someone does for their day-to-day; it's unlikely it will have any impact on me or my friendship with them. I want to know what they bring to the table in our current or potential social situation and the fact that they make PowerPoint presentations for whomever to look at, ask a few questions answered in the presentation's appendix, and never think about again doesn't do anything to further any of that.
I’d much rather know and learn about someone’s passion for woodworking, hill walking, flower arranging, whatever they enjoy doing in their free time, rather than having to talk about their (or my!) work.
And regarding social interactions: Its no difference for you interacting with people from your mind-liked crowd in opposion to someone who runs a gun-shop-chain? For sure, a constructed example, but Id say there is for sure some difference when acting with the different groups?
(Not OP) It's not a core part of it, no. I'm a person who likes solving problems and has an attention to detail. If I see that something is wrong I have a desire to fix it regardless of it's my responsibility or not. This could be finding an outdated piece of documentation at work or finding a piece of litter on the street.
These traits make me an effective software engineer (up to the senior level, then I have to fight against those parts of my personality and focus on specific high-impact things if I want to succeed at Staff+), but they are a part of who I am totally independent from my career.
Software engineering is a field that I am good at and that pays exceptionally well, but I could be happy utilizing these traits in any number of careers. Were I financially independent, my dream career would probably be something closer to the people who design and build elaborate contraptions for stage shows such as Cirque du Soleil.
And, you know, it's not interesting to talk about. Talking about that is fine at the job, that's what we do. I have no interest in talking about that when I'm not working. Instead I want to talk about other things. Hobbies, activities, music, books, whatever. Enquring about someone's job will not lead to that at all.
Some people are recently laid off, and asking what they do for work might sting a bit.
If you believe the managers who interact with you have any say in who gets laid off, then your understanding of how business works isn't nearly as good as you seem to believe it is.
If you're at a faceless megacorp, that's a different story.
Except, that’s very rarely the case IME.
We’re talking about improving, not guaranteeing, your odds long term employment.
In most cases, this is a sucker mentality that makes you vulnerable to abusive employers. You will stress yourself out making your boss richer. They won't care or make reciprocal gestures. They'd be happy to replace you should you become inconvenient.
There is a non zero chance that the company I work for pivots into some weird crypto niche (low, but we’re already fintech-y). If that happens, I’m out, but no way in hell am I gonna pivot my work personality overnight because of a business decision made by the company’s board and investors.
If I need to put on a happy face for my boss to keep my job, then I’m gonna do it because I can’t afford not to at the moment. That’s not to say there is no line, but being a generally positive person in the workplace is a role I’m fine with playing. It costs me very little personally and opens a lot of doors because let’s face it, nobody likes working with a loathsome human being, even if they’re right.
Am I a sucker? Maybe by your definition, but I don’t feel like one currently.
Part of being a sucker is not thinking you're a sucker.
> more about _how good you are at putting on a show_ of giving a shit.
> If I need to put on a happy face for my boss to keep my job,
OK, this is an entirely different thing. This is being dishonest.
Could be 35-ish of age, like in my case, could be later, could be earlier, but at some point that realization will have to come otherwise you’ll remain an empty corpse throughout the rest of it all.
I can assure you that when they are laying off to cut costs, which is most of the time, what they notice is A) the old/expensive ones who can be let go without any major disruptions and B) the "expendables" such as contractors or those they have a personal dislike of - the latter usually has not much to do with hard work and a lot more to do with perception. Category A is to meet cost targets while category B can also help with number targets.
If you think your hard work alone will save you, I pray that life spares you that rude shock.
I got to this bit before realising this is satire
I don’t put any effort in now. Still get paid the same. Now have more time for better stuff.
Sounds like you’re young and early in your career.
Wait till you’re part of a layoff where an entire division or arm of the company is axed in a 750 person headcount reduction.
Doesn’t matter how good you are, how many years of service you have or even if the CEO loves you. You’ll be out.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Yeah it can. People have been using LLMs as therapists and digital friends for a while now. All of the soft skills were the first to get automated.
> My technical skills are being disrupted by machines - that's fine I'll go do other things.
Oh yeah? What exactly?